This is the transcript from the video I did on this topic, which is detailed in this blog post. The transcript was originally done using MacWhisper Pro, which was pretty good for early 2023. I cleaned it up in YouTube and exported the text from there to here. I cleaned up the formatting as much as I had time for. It’s a little weird because it comes originally from the closed-captioning. Anyway, it’s a lot to sit through, but I had to do it For The Record. That was the whole point of this exercise, after all.

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Hi there, my name is Frank Burkett Coleman IV, and it is Saturday February 4th, 2023 Just a little after noon, Eastern Standard Time here in New York City, and I am the creator of the first interactive music site on the internet, period, full stop.

It was in 1995 ,and I have been trying for a very long time to gather together as much courtroom level proof evidence as I can in support of this claim and I am as prepared I think as I ever am going to be now to do that and that’s what this video is about.

I suppose the first thing I should do is show you the timeline of events so let’s do that.

This was 1995, it was late 95.

It coincided with the release of Macromedia’s version of the Shockwave player on October 30th, 1995.

This is a press release from that date.

This was the first time that this capability was available to the public.

The capability of being able to have multiple layers of music, of audio, that you could play with, you could squeeze with, interactively, you could change which one was playing, you could adjust the volume levels of each of them, so on this over separately, two layers separately from each other.

In a browser, on a computer desktop, on both Macintosh and Windows computers.

This is the first time that that capability was available.

And I was a member of the Macromedia Beta team, so I had early access to this technology and I was working for months beforehand, developing this app.

We didn’t use the word app back then because we didn’t think of apps the way we think of apps now.

Apps now mean something on a mobile phone.

It was an application because it was, you know, a self-contained thing.

It could play as an application, but the point was that it played in a web browser as a destination as a site that you could go to.

And then you could have this consistent experience regardless of whether you’re on a Windows machine or a Mac machine if you had the required system requirements, which were Netscape 2.0 and a certain amount of RAM.

And a dial-up modem to connect to the internet.

Most people did not have broadband at this time.

It was all on telephone lines and so it was very, very slow compared to today as were the machines of the day compared to machines of today.

And so at the time, one of the things that multimedia developers had to do was squeeze every possible last bit of performance out of the machine that they possibly could in the name of speed, because speed was paramount.

Now, everything runs way the hell too fast! So this is October 30th.

Now the samples that I used in the program came from the Young Gods album, Only Heaven, which was released on June 27, 1995.

And actually, the song “Kissing the Sun” was their single, and that was released on November 6.

So, you see, I used a bunch of samples from this, because we knew this was going to be a single, and we knew this was going to be coming out in October, so it all kind of coincided, you know, that we featured the song that happened to be their single.

And we mentioned that in the press that we put out at the time.

So there’s that, as I was coincide.

Also, Macromedia themselves– this is also talking about the capability of Shockwave at the time.

This afterburner capability was included with Director 5.

That was a critical capability.

And in my handwritten notes, you can see I make reference to the fact that it was right at the junction between Director 4 and Director 5.

So, we were very much working with bleeding edge technology, not sure if what I wanted to do was going to work or not.

And the rest is history.

Anyway, so this is, again, just to establish this data and these capabilities.

This is the Adobe fandom.com website, which has been developed independently to sustain the history of this technology because the Adobe themselves are doing a miserable job themselves.

Here is the end of life statement from Adobe’s website.

It’s effective April 9, 2019.

You can’t play this stuff anymore online at all.

The only way we can play it today is I can play it inside Macromedia Director of the authoring program, which has also been discontinued, but which yet still miraculously runs on my Mac.

And let’s see, oh yes, here we are.

Here’s the Shockwave Player version history.

This is last updated in 2021.

And Adobe cares so little for this history that they only go back as far as the year 2000.

All the important stuff happened in the 90s.

Well anyway, I also went to the Wayback Machine which is this fantastic, fantastic resource like the Library of Alexandria, the Internet Archive, long may it last! And I did a search on my domain 21ca.com.

I am the owner of two four letter domains, 21ca.com, 21st century art, and IVTV.com, intravenous television, both of which I purchased around about this time.

And, you know, I don’t know how much longer there’ll still be like dot-coms will still be something that is of value.

I mean, we’re going to move into a Web 3 world, and at some point the whole notion of dot-coms as a piece of property, as a deed to a piece of virtual property, that value is going to diminish and diminish and diminish over time.

It may take take a while, but eventually.

But anyway, for now at least, I’m the owner and provider of two unused four-letter domain names.

(laughs) There aren’t any more four-letter domain names available.

They haven’t been for probably decades.

Now I don’t even think there’s five letter domain names that’s still available.

But whatever.

Anyway, so I did a search on my own domain, 21ca.com.

And it has been collecting data from my website.

since December 23rd, 1996.

OK, so that’s a year later.

Almost a year, plus some change, later than the date, of the date when Macromedia did their press announcement of October 30th, ’95.

But let’s go take a look at what my site looks like back here on this date.

We’ve got– yeah, this is going back to the very oldest one.

Well, here we go.

This was my website in 1996.

And as you can see, I am featuring the worldwide glide project that I did with Will Sergeant from Echo and the Bunnymen, my dear friend.

And we got written up in HotWired, which was the online component of Wired.

And that article is still available.

It’s over here, actually December 19, 1996, talking about all this.

And we’ll take a look at– at Glide, it was like the second iteration, the sequel that improves upon and builds on what I did with the Young Gods thing.

Now, down here if we scroll down, I’m talking about IVTV and everything, here’s me talking about The Young Gods.

So here I am talking about, and pointing to, and linking to my page about The Young Gods, as of December 23rd, 1996 on the internet.

Now the page that it points to looks like this.

And we don’t see the actual movie here anymore, because Adobe killed Shockwave, so the embed link that would have shown us the movie shows us nothing now.

But you can see that it says that it references The Young Gods, and the album, and their publishers, and their website, and it gives us instructions for how to interact with the piece.

There’s this landscape, you see.

This is the landscape.

This is what I designed and created for them in a program called KPT Bryce, which is a fantastic 3D modeling and rendering program that basically required no coding or skills or much in the way of any kind of skills! You could just drag things from a library into this scene, and create a landscape, and then wrap pictures around the objects that you made.

And so that’s what I did.

This is a pool of water that’s reflecting and haze and fog.

And there’s this sphere in the background which has mapped to it.

The picture from the album, Only Heaven, the cover art of the three guys in the band, and I knocked out the background so it’s semi-translucent, so that you can see the sky in the background behind them.

Trying to create like a feeling of 3D in a 2D world, on a 2D tiny little screen.

When we look at the thing, I mean, this thing is basically like a postage stamp, right? But that’s because at the time monitors were only 640 by 480 in resolution, and so this took up the whole monitor, or close to it.

Anyway, so just closing the loop on the timeline here.

If I go and look at, let me see, if I look at the source code for this page.

I’m not sure there’s any actual dates embedded.

Oh, well, here’s one thing it says it requires Netscape 2.0 and Shockwave.

I was looking through the keywords that I gave it, but I don’t always see anything in their date-wise.

This business here is part of the wayback machine, and it’s just instantiated the date again that they came and crawled it, which was February 1, 1997.

February 1, 1997.

So, today is February 4, 2023, almost exactly 35 years to the day (sorry, 25, I was tired).

I’ve been carrying around the files that make up this thing.

Let me just go show you the folder here, this basically, this little DCR file.

That’s the shockwave, that’s the compressed shockwave file that I would post out on the web, and this is the index.html file that would be the wrapper around it ,that gives us our text here, and that would make it play when shockwave was a thing that was actually playing on the web.

But this, in the old days, when one made a DCR file, when one made a file, shockwave file that you’re going to put out on the web, It removed all the code.

It compressed it in such a way that you couldn’t reopen the file and go get your code out of it.

This was to protect the livelihood of multimedia developers like me, who didn’t want people stealing their code.

The point is that this stuff was inaccessible.

It’s inaccessible.

At least, that’s what we were told.

Here we are, 35 years later, and there is still a mailing list for Macromedia director and its developers that is still being housed at the same place, the Maricopa University in Arizona.

Unfortunately, the archives prior to 1996 have been lost and irretrievable.

And that’s what all the interesting stuff happened, like all this.

But this one fellow, Valentin Schmidt, is really the savior of all of us! He’s developed some utilities that are able to take our ancient Director and Shockwave compressed movies, and reopen them again, and make the source code and everything in them available to us again.

And I finally had the bright idea a couple of days ago to drop him a line, and say, “Hey, If I just send you this, can you make this work?” [laughs] Yes, sure enough.

Not only did he make it work, but he uncompressed it for me, and he sent me back the files and said, “Here it is on a silver platter, my friend.” And also the tools themselves, so that I can go do it myself, with other even older stuff that I’m going to go and excavate now.

But it appears that what this means is that all, or most, or…

hopefully most if not all of the multimedia work that I and my colleagues did in the early 1990s is going to actually be salvageable, in terms of being able to actually see it again at least on the desktop, but I have also actually salvaged the actual Lingo code.

And here’s my code right here.

I will do another video that does a deep dive into this, but if you just take a sort of a cursory glance at this, you can notice that the code doesn’t appear to have an awful lot of like gobbledegook.

You know what I would characterize as gobbledegook, you know, like this kind of crap.

You know, the whole point of Lingo as a coding language, as a scripting programming language.

Is that anybody could get their head around it, if they put their minds put it.

It bears resemblance to plain English and it follows a logic that is like “Steps 1, 2, 3…

But anyway, I’m going to do a deep dive into all this in a different video, in another video later.

But the point is that it’s now, suddenly, 35 years later.

I can actually get at my original piece, that showed this capability off to the world, and I feel a little like– you see the movie, “Hugo?” I feel a little like Ben Kingsley in the movie “Hugo” when they show him – he’s Georges Melies – and they show him his movies again for the first time, that he thought had been lost for so long, and yeah, I’m having that kind of vibe right about now.

Anyway, we’re gonna dig into this, and I’m going to show you how this works.

Roll over the pyramids to change the lead track.

Click on them to change the rhythm track.

Ok? So, that’s basically it.

Now, I am going to try playing it from the beginning.

And like I said, the way that the code was written, it was written for a machines that are many, many, many times slower.

So it’s going to be way too fast.

So, the aesthetic experience is not going to be exactly the way that it was 35 years ago.

But you’ll get the right– you’ll get enough of the point to be able to see, to be able to read between the lines.

Okay.

All right.

The other thing that I noticed is that when I ran this before, I was having some trouble getting both channels to actually play here, because I think the audio is 8-bit 22k mono, which is so old that the Mac really doesn’t support it anymore.

It’s such an antiquated format that when they make Macs, they can only be backwards compatible so far.

This is too far.

So I can play it inside Macromedia Director and the weird thing is as soon as I started doing my screen capture for this, then it started playing properly.

So there may be some sort of conflict for the audio drivers, but I’ve noticed this problem with Apple and audio drivers for, maybe the last five years or so.

If I just leave my machine on for a while, and leave it running eventually, something gets screwed up, and it won’t play videos anymore, and I have to reboot the machine.

But anyway, that side note aside, let’s try playing this, and then I’ll give you an idea of what what all is going on.

Okay.

I’m going to try playing this, and I may have to do a few takes through this to get some usable stuff out of it.

But anyway, here we go.

You’ll get the idea.

This is Macromedia Director 11.5, from 1994 to 2009, iss the copyright.

and let’s see if this sucker will run.

Let’s see what we got.

Now you see how when I roll– let me take these out so I can hear myself…

The idea here is I’m trying to create a sort of idea of 3D…

to bring the fly closer to us here.

Okay, and then when you roll over, this is what I mean about everything going too fast.

[MUSIC] [MUSIC] ♪ dance, little wind ♪ ♪ dance, little wind ♪ (upbeat music) – Here we go – Two layers! – So you got this groove from “Kissing the Sun” going on underneath, and then there’s the volume of this second layer is controlled by the mouse, which is substituted, the mouse cursor is substituted with the fly, and it’s an array of a bunch of different flies.

Depending on where in the screen we are.

Let’s see if I can bring up another sample.

[Music] Now, I’ve changed the underlying layer.

And sometimes we get the same sample on top of itself.

(upbeat music) Now we have a different underlying sample.

Rhythm bed.

Some of these loops sound like they’re not actually looping, so I want to just check and see, and make sure they are in fact…

It should be.

I mean, it could be just corrupted because it’s so old.

Yeah.

Yeah, these guys are all set to loop.

All right.

Well, so be it.

But as you can see, 22.050, 8 bit, Mono.

is what these things are.

Okay.

So like I say, it’s not exactly the aesthetic experience that one had in 1995 because everything is crazy, (imitates engine) way too fast and all like that.

And also, I mean, the limitations of the medium at the time, even at 22.050, 8 bit, mono format, I could only really afford to have tiny, tiny little loops, and only let’s say what to three, four, six…

so, there’s nine of them in total.

And they’re each, like you heard, “Mississippi one, Mississippi two,” at the most! At the most, right? And out of that, I had to try to construct some loops that would sound at least remotely interesting against each other.

Not all of these are working, unfortunately.

You heard some of them, but like there’s a guitar lick in there that’s kind of cool over top of some of the other stuff.

So, but I think you get enough of the jist of the experience.

Anyway, I want to talk about what’s actually going on under the hood here.

So, let’s take this back.

Let’s take this back to the beginning.

So, here’s this stage here.

And you see this fly is off the stage.

It has to be present on the stage, in order for it to receive its programming messages that it needs at the beginning of the program, get itself all kind of suited up for the interactivity that it needs to do in the subsequent frames.

This, just by way of introduction– in case you’ve never seen this before– this is the inside, the guts, the innards of Macromedia Director.

And Macromedia Director was THE authoring program for interactive multimedia.

The preeminent, really, the king of multimedia for a very, very long time, and by which an awful lot of us developer types made our living, building such things.

Until they bought the company that made Flash and decided that Flash was going to take predominance over Director, in terms of the company’s focus and attention and development efforts, because they saw Flash as leading to much, much, tiinier file sizes.

And that was the critical thing was the size of your files, not what was in them, but that they’d be small.

So that they could come down the pipe fast enough.

This was obviated with broadband, obviously, but at the time it was felt that asking people to download a 250k plugin was entirely too great a hurdle to ask, just so that people could have the privilege of seeing multimedia.

No, they needed something much, much tinier, which was the Flash plugin, so that they could use Flash, which– Flash also used vector graphics, so it scaled up to the window size without any degradation of the image.

So there were some good things, quite a few good things about Flash.

Flash and Director got fused at the hips and could talk to each other, and I could actually bring in Flash objects into Director, and talk back and forth between the two, and that had all kinds of potentiality, but then they killed Director, and then they killed Flash, and now you can’t play either Director or Flash movies of any kind, anywhere, except on your desktop, locally, maybe, if you really go through the effort to get it all set up.

Anyway, what’s going on here is I’ve got this little bug here, and this bug is going to take the place of my cursor.

My cursor here.

And on stage itself, when we get to this stage here, there is the background image here.

That’s the full screen.

And then layered on top of that are a whole bunch of invisible little boxes, that are like different areas of the screen, and the idea is that when my mouse intersects with one of these boxes – looks like they need a little help here – It’s going to trigger something.

This is sprite number 12.

Each of these is called a sprite.

And they live in a channel here.

I know this thing looks like a spreadsheet, but really it’s a Timeline, and it goes from left to right, and from bottom to top Right, top– like this, so the things that are in these upper, higher numbered channels are on top of the things that are in the lowered number channels, and actually right here, in these last three, on top of all those invisible guys down here, are these three pyramids.

A little cutout section of the original, just layered right on top of it, right in exactly the same pixel, but so that they’re isolated, so that I can say, “Oh look I’m over– my mouse is actually over this area now.” Or it’s over this area now, in sprite 14, or it’s over this area now, in sprite 15.

And so what happens is, as the program is sitting there, churning along, it’s watching where my mouse is, this entire time.

The X/Y coordinates.

How far over from left to right I am, and how far down from top to bottom I am.

Those two numbers, it’s tracking those two numbers.

And at some point or another, I intersect with, either some point on the screen, or one of these three pyramids.

Now, when I intersect with the three pyramids, I start interacting with the music clips.

They start firing off, and doing all kinds of graphical stuff, and picking at random from my bin of available music clips.

And when I roll off of the pyramid, it would take the last one in that list that it picked, and attach it to the mouse.

And it would fly along with the mouse thereafter, until it got substituted with another one, when I rolled over a different pyramid.

And then, as I roll around the screen, if I’m not actually touching one of those pyramids, but I’m intersecting with one of those other invisible areas, then depending on where we are in the top, the middle, or the bottom of the screen, it’s going to swap out the mouse with one of these flies here.

And I made one like this, one like this, one like this.

And that’s the bottom.

And then I made one like this, one like this, like that.

And there’s the middle, one like that, like that.

And so you got bottom, middle, and top.

You can see how they’re different angles.

That’s their logo.

The fly is the logo of the band, with the three flies.

So I wanted to use that.

And you know what, gee, I don’t know why people didn’t pick up on this whole notion of making the cursor into a character, because you could, and that’s your stand-in.

I mean, for crying out loud, that’s– as you’re navigating through a space, why not make it be your person? You know, it just never occurred to almost anybody else, I guess.

I never really saw that idea take off, ’til– still, today, the cursor is just a dumb pointer.

Because, you know, we just want you to click on things and buy things.

Anyway, so that all is what is happening.

And underneath the hood, there is a list here.

This is the list of all the little bugs.

And this is, there it is, those are all the bugs here, that are used.

And, this is a list of all the music clips that are used for the lead, I think, now is it the LD, or is it the lead versus the riff? Yeah, okay, so the lead loop is like the solo, is what would be the ones that get attached to the mouse.

And this would be the ones that get attached to the riff on the bottom.

Those are the bug numbers, that’s–yeah, okay.

So anyway, the code in here looks like this.

And I’m not gonna do a total deep dive into this because I’m going to do that in a different movie.

But, I just want you to get the idea that the code that runs this stuff looks a little like English.

And that’s for a reason.

And the other thing about this that I want you to see is that actually this code, the way in which this is done, and all like that, is actually very primitive.

It’s all what is called procedural code.

I want you to do this, then I want you to do this, then I want you to do this, then I want you to do this.

Procedure.

One thing after another.

Later on, and I’m going to open up another project that’s like a year later, you can see how the code evolved.

It becomes more of what they call encapsulated.

Like here, I got this thing I want you to do.

It’s called “going to the store.” And when I say “go to the store,” I’m just going to hand you this list.

I want you to run down this list, and just get everything that’s on the list, and then come back.

So, it’s more like encapsulated like that.

I can just say here’s the list instead of haing to go, “Eggs bread milk.

Eggs bread milk butter” every time, you know? It’s like that.

It’s like “Here!” Yeah, this thing called a list, and here it is.

You understand what a list is! And it knows to go read it down.

So that– that’s partly because of…

I was a really young programmer at the time.

Everybody was! This is 1995, and it’s also because that’s all that the program allowed in terms of capability, I think, at the time.

This was still Director– I was writing in Director 4, and we were right on the bridge between Director 4 and Director 5, and it was a major update, and there was major capabilities, and the ways in which we went about things– it was very different.

So that’s another clue about the age of this thing, is that it was also very early in my programming career, because if you look at this versus code that came later, it’s obvious that this was early stuff.

But basically this is what happens, and this is a little object here, actually, a little object in script, and it just sort of sits there, like a little droid, waiting for something to happen, and when I say, “Hey, go pick a song for me,” in other words choose a song, it does these commands.

It says, okay, how many songs have we got? Give me a count, ok? And then, pick a number from 1 to whatever that number is.

…23, whatever…

All right, I’m gonna– you know that list of songs I’ve got? That list of files I’ve got? Go get me number (whatever that number was that I just picked).

Go get me THAT one, OK, all right.

And I need to know the number of where that item lives in my cast, down here, alright? That’s your number.

This one’s number 36.

And then puppetsound just means basically “play the sound.” Play the sound on (which channel because I got two channels).

And that’s that number, That one that I just went and got.

And then update the stage just means Ok, now show everybody, essentially.

So I might say, “Choose the song” – it’s basically saying, “Just go pick one at random, and play it on this channel.” You can basically see how that works without being a programmer, You can just, from the way I described it, you should be able to get just a basic outline of how that basically happens.

Let’s go take a look at my notes.

I found a piece of paper with my handwritten notes from when I was putting this together.

This is the part where I was figuring out the coordinates where on the screen I wanted to have the hotspots.

and how many flies I would have to make.

Right, left, upper right, lower right, upper left, lower left, and so forth.

And let’s see, I think these may have been measurements.

Let’s see.

Oops, hang on.

Let’s go back here.

Now, down towards the bottom of the page, I am talking about which audio files should be used for the floor, for the riff, and which I should be using for the for the lead part overhead.

What else we got here…? Ah, blah, blah, blah.

Well, nothing much I can decipher from there.

This I think may have been the first page.

Follow the kiss principle, “Keep it Simple, Stupid.” Yes, step one, review my email.

and Dominique’s feedback.

This is a reference to Dominique, their webmaster in Switzerland.

Step two, “Cannibalize the scripts from my demo and my first attempt at this.” Step 3.

Get something related, test sound, through, circulated test sound loops, and these are the songs, “Lointaine,” “Outside,” “Crier” “Donnez Les Esprits”, those are songs from Only Heaven that I used as sample bait.

Unless there’s specific new functions regarding irregularly shaped sprites, stick with Director 4!” Yeah.

Well, actually, it turns out there was new functions with irregularly shaped sprites.

And you can see them inside Director.

Those are the pyramids that I got on top of the existing one.

So yes, so we ended up going to Director Five.

Lucky thing that.

Step four, the most difficult part, switching the cursors, should not be that tough, do a simple test only, finalize the art, and tweak the cursors script.

If not resolved by Lingo by 1 PM, do invisible sprites.

I did invisible sprites! I was trying to calculate, mathematically, the X/Y coordinates, if you’re not within this and this, do this.

If you’re within this, but this, do this.

If you’re within this, but this, do this.

Multiply times, you know, in all those different areas, top, middle, and bottom? I ended up doing invisible sprites! Okay, the mouse fly, 3D rotating.

I wanted the fly to look like it was not just changing as it went to the midspace, and then up into the back.

I wanted it to look like it was actually turning around, and coming back again.

So I actually tilted it, tilted them so when they’re in the back, their heads point kind of down a little bit.

On rollover…

When you’re over the hot area, you swap out the sprite.

It’s the pyramid, And randomly cycle through the related sounds.

If I’m NOT over the hotspot, I’m carrying the last sound that, when I pull away from the pyramid, whatever was the last one gets attached, and comes along with me.

And then I can go like this, around the rest of the scene.

I roll over the rest of the pyramid, and pick up another lead thing, and wave it around.

That’s the idea.

Carries the last linked lead sound and tweeze the volume.

On mouseDown, change the background loop sound.

Maybe cycle the background loop sounds, no, we didn’t do that.

On mouse up, it carries the last background loop if you’re over the hot areas.

And that’s on the mouseDown, right.

That’s what’s triggering the underlying riff on mouseDown.

If the mouse goes down, and you’re NOT over one of those pyramids, then I was looking at possibly changing the color of the fly sprite, but I decided against it.

I guess I probably ran out of time, and it probably didn’t look right.

So, kept it black, just so you could see it, as it moves through the field.

Yeah, “Do not: Futz with Bryce 2.” You could get really lost making these landscapes, man.

It’s just such fun.

“Don’t futz with sounds.

Don’t deviate from this spec, and don’t take all day!” Man, know your audience, huh? So that is, those are my handwritten notes from building this project.

Yes, if we go back to the cast, we can see that this is the entire picture here, that’s in the background.

And then as we move forward here, see that pyramid? That piece is cut out as a hotspot.

And the question was, would Director be able to interpret these blank areas as blank, or is it going to view the whole thing as a square, taking up the space on stage? And as long as it knocked out the background, I could use this as a hot spot.

And it– they did.

They supported it in Director 5, and that’s what got me to move from Director 4 to Director 5, which made a lot of stuff easier.

Now, the other thing that happens there, is that… that pyramid– see, I made a second one, where I actually put their photo melded it into it, and that is…

there’s rollover.

That’s down, pretty sure.

Same thing here.

Normal, rollover, down.

Right? Normal state, then when you rollover, it goes like that, and see how it extends into the scene? That’s so that it didn’t look weird, and cut off there.

That it made made it look nice and smooth, and didn’t disrupt the fog, because the way that it rendered here and the different shading on the pyramid, it’s a differential in the way the fog rendered.

So, by doing it this way, having the whole shadow being cast by the pyramid, looks natural.

And the same thing here.

Right.

And there’s my bugs again.

So yeah, that’s…

and when we’re here, looking at the stage here…

See, that is that bitmap, right there, but the way it’s shown on the stage, as you can see, the background is knocked out.

So yeah, that is The Young Gods’ interactive music shockwave site, the first interactive music site on the internet! If there was another one prior to this, I’d be happy to concede the point.

With commensurate documentary evidence, I will happily concede the point.

I am a scientist, facts is facts.

I find that possibility to distinctly remote.

And so, I am laying claim to the title.

There you go.

Thank you for your time.

This has been my TED Talk.

See you later.